外交部副部长乐玉成接受英国《金融时报》专访实录文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/5878.html
Transcript of Vice Foreign Minister Le Yucheng’s Exclusive Interview with the Financial Times文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/5878.html
文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/5878.html
2018年9月10日，外交部副部长乐玉成接受英国《金融时报》亚洲版总编吉密欧专访。以下为文字实录：文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/5878.html
文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/5878.html
On 10 September 2018, Vice Foreign Minister Le Yucheng sat down with Jamil Anderlini, the Asia Editor of the Financial Times, for an exclusive interview. The following is the full transcript:文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/5878.html
文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/5878.html
吉密欧：关于“一带一路”和马歇尔计划的关系。想必您也多次听说这种类比。虽然中国政府强调“一带一路”倡议不能同马歇尔计划相提并论，但许多人还是坚持有类似之处。“一带一路”倡议同样涉及大规模基础设施投资，同样有助于改善中国在全世界的形象，也是和平时期实施的计划。它们难道没有类似之处吗？文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/5878.html
文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/5878.html
Jamil Anderlini: This idea of the Marshall Plan, you hear this over and over. The government in Beijing says the Belt and Road Initiative shouldn’t be compared to the Marshall Plan. But many people still say it’s similar. It’s a lot of spending on infrastructure and it helps improve the image of China around the world. It’s all done in peacetime. So isn’t there some similarities? Or not.文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/5878.html
乐玉成：我觉得两者之间可以说有一点相似，比如在推动基础设施建设方面，或者都是和平时期的倡议或计划。但是二者本质上完全不同。首先，从历史经纬看，“一带一路”与马歇尔计划相比，既古老又年轻。说古老，是因为它传承了2000年的丝绸之路精神，是古代“丝绸之路”的现代版。说年轻，是因为它诞生于21世纪的全球化时代，是开放合作的产物。
Le Yucheng: It may appear that the two initiatives have something in common, as they are both about investment in infrastructure in peacetime. But other than that, they cannot be more different. First, time-line wise, the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is older and also younger than the Marshall Plan. Older because it draws inspiration from the spirit of the ancient Silk Road with over 2000 years of history, hence the modern version of the Silk Road. It is younger than the Marshall Plan, because it was conceived in the 21st century, an era of globalization, and born out of opening-up and cooperation.
其次，马歇尔计划是冷战时代美苏争霸的产物，带有明显的意识形态、地缘政治色彩，而“一带一路”是经济合作倡议、互联互通倡议。
Secondly, the Marshall Plan was introduced during the Cold War dominated by rivalry between the United States and the former Soviet Union. Therefore, it had clear geopolitical and ideological goals. The BRI, on the other hand, focuses on economic cooperation and connectivity.
2013年9月，我作为中国驻哈萨克斯坦大使，有幸见证了习近平主席在哈萨克斯坦纳扎尔巴耶夫大学演讲时，第一次提出“一带一路”倡议，也就是建立“丝绸之路经济带”。习主席演讲结束后，纳扎尔巴耶夫总统明确支持并高度评价，这是“一带一路”倡议最早获得的国际支持。
In September 2013, President Xi Jinping first proposed the BRI, the “Silk Road Economic Belt”, during his speech at the Nazarbayev University in Kazakhstan. I was there as the Chinese Ambassador. After the speech, President Nazarbayev expressed his clear support and applauded the proposal. That was the earliest international support that the BRI has received.
为什么习主席选择哈萨克斯坦宣布这个倡议呢？首先，哈萨克斯坦是中亚大国，中亚经历了苏联解体后的动荡和战乱，2013年时已经稳定，人民迫切渴望发展经济和开展对外合作。其次，中亚也是中国通向中东、非洲乃至欧洲的陆上必经之路。从上述背景看，最初提出“一带一路”倡议就是为了推进经济合作和互联互通。
Why did President Xi choose to announce this initiative in Kazakhstan? First of all, Kazakhstan is a major country in central Asia. After all the turbulence and conflicts following the breakup of the former Soviet Union, stability has taken hold in Central Asia in 2013 and people there longed for development and cooperation. Secondly, central Asia is the land route linking China to the Middle East, Africa and Europe. Such a backdrop shows that the BRI was proposed for economic cooperation and connectivity.
“一带一路”倡议与马歇尔计划的另一个区别，就是马歇尔计划有一个分界线，主要针对西欧国家，排斥苏联东欧阵营，但“一带一路”坚持共商共建共享，大家一起干。这符合中国和平发展、合作共赢的外交政策，也是推动构建人类命运共同体重要尝试或平台。当今世界，保护主义、单边主义、霸凌主义不断抬头，反全球化势力活跃。我们提出“一带一路”倡议，旨在聚合各方力量，开展国际合作。这在当前形势下具有特殊重要意义，也为推动建设公正平等的国际新秩序和完善全球治理体系变革，提供了有益的启示和探索。
Another feature sets the BRI apart from the Marshall Plan. The Marshall Plan drew a clear line at Western European countries and not including the former Soviet Union and those in Eastern Europe. But the BRI follows the principle of consultation, cooperation and benefits for all, featuring broad participation. This is determined by China’s foreign policy characterized by peaceful development and win-win cooperation, and means to provide a platform to explore the building of a community with a shared future for mankind.
In today’s world, we see a trend of rising protectionism, unilateralism, bullying and anti-globalization. We hope to pool strengths for closer international cooperation through the BRI. It is highly relevant given the current international landscape, and represents a useful effort in building a more fair and equitable new international order and in the reform of the global governance structure.
吉密欧：您觉得现阶段“一带一路”倡议总体来说究竟是加强还是削弱了中国的软实力和全球影响力？
Jamil Anderlini: Thinking about this idea of soft power and China’s influence of power around the world. Do you think the Belt and Road is on balance enhancing China’s soft power or hurting China’s soft power right now?
乐玉成：五年来的实践表明，“一带一路”倡议在国际上是很受欢迎的。去年5月，我们举行了首届“一带一路”国际合作高峰论坛，140 多个国家和80多个国际组织嘉宾与会，其中包括29个国家领导人，盛况空前。
Le Yucheng: The implementation of the BRI in the past five years shows how it has caught on internationally. We held the first Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation in May last year, which attracted unprecedented representation of over 140 countries and 80 international organizations, including leaders from 29 countries.
欧洲是共建“一带一路”的重要合作伙伴，8位欧洲国家领导人以及英、法、德、欧盟领导人代表参加了峰会。我们没有听说哪个欧洲国家反对该倡议。法国总统马克龙今年1月访华时，对“一带一路”表达了热情支持。英国首相特使、财政部长哈蒙德去年出席论坛时，表示英国是“一带一路”的天然伙伴。还有人说，“一带一路”架起了中欧合作的桥梁，而不是垒起了高墙。
Europe is an important partner for the BRI. Eight leaders of European countries and representatives from the UK, France, Germany and the EU attended last year’s Belt and Road Forum. So far, we haven’t heard any single European leader opposing the BRI. French President Macron expressed his support and interest during his visit to China last January. Philip Hammond, Special Envoy for the British Prime Minister and Chancellor of the Exchequer, described the UK as a natural partner for the BRI when addressing last year’s forum. Others have said that the BRI is a bridge for China-Europe cooperation, not a high wall.
中欧双方在今年7月第20次领导人会晤期间同意加强“一带一路”同欧洲投资计划、泛欧交通网等发展规划的对接。英国还成立了“一带一路”专家理事会。亚洲基础设施投资银行与“一带一路”紧密相关，英、法、德等25个欧洲国家加入了该机构。刚刚结束的中非合作论坛北京峰会迎来了51位非洲国家领导人，包括40位总统，10位总理，1位副总统，他们对“一带一路”倡议予以高度评价。迄今，有37个非洲国家同中方签署了“一带一路”合作协议或备忘录，使得同中国签署“一带一路”合作文件的国家和组织达到130 多个。
During the 20th China-EU Summit last July, the two sides agreed to create greater synergy between the BRI and EU’s development initiatives, including the Investment Plan for Europe and the Trans-European Transport Networks. The UK has set up a City Expert Board for BRI cooperation. Twenty-five European countries, including the UK, France and Germany, have joined the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB), which has close ties with the BRI.
The just-concluded Beijing Summit of Forum on China-Africa Cooperation (FOCAC) was attended by 51 African leaders, including 40 presidents, 10 prime ministers, and one vice president. They all spoke highly of the BRI. Up to date, 37 African countries have signed agreements or MOUs with China on BRI cooperation, taking the total number to over 130.
许多国家都把“一带一路”看成机遇，看成同中方加强合作的重要平台，包括拉美国家。“一带一路”倡议起初没打算延伸到拉美，但他们说，我们国家发掘出了很多中国瓷器，也应该算“一带一路”沿线国家。这表明，大家都想成为“一带一路”合作伙伴。
Many countries see the BRI as an opportunity and a platform for closer cooperation with China, including Latin American countries. Originally, the BRI did not extend to Latin America. But they say Chinese porcelain was discovered there, showing that they are also part of the BRI. This speaks to the interest of many to be partners of the BRI.
“一带一路”倡议如此受欢迎，是我们提出之初没有想到的。我跟你讲个故事，就是哈萨克斯坦总统纳扎尔巴耶夫去年出席论坛时，见到论坛盛况就问中国领导人，当初中方提出该倡议时，想到会有如此的盛况和影响力了吗？中国领导人回答，既想到也没想到，想到的是这项倡议符合中国的发展阶段和世界潮流，也是世界人民的愿望。没想到的是，大家对“一带一路”这么热情地支持。中国领导人的回答真切地表明，“一带一路” 倡议的影响力在不断扩大。
The BRI has been warmly welcomed to an extent that has far exceeded our expectations. Let me share with you an anecdote. When President Nazarbayev was in Beijing for the Belt and Road Forum and saw the level of attendance, he asked the Chinese leader if China had ever expected such strong attraction and impact of the BRI when it was first announced. The Chinese leader said, yes and no. Yes, because the BRI is in line with China’s development stage and responds to the trend of the times as well as the aspirations of people across the world. But what we didn’t expect is this overwhelming support. That answer really shows how the BRI has caught on.
吉密欧：我们从一些国家听到的批评或者说提出的问题就是债务。中方提供贷款，使一些国家债务水平过高，无法维持，也无法偿还。最常提及的就是斯里兰卡。有人说，斯里兰卡政府债务负担过于沉重，无力偿还，不得不把有关港口移交给中国。中国有什么计划确保这些国家的政府能够偿还债务？
Jamil Anderlini: One criticism we’ve heard from some countries. One thing that people have raised in some areas is the idea of debt. The idea that many of the loans or the investments involved loans from China to these countries may make these countries take on too much debt and they won’t be able to fund them, or they won’t be able to repay these loans. And one example we hear a lot is the example of Sri Lanka, which seems to borrow too much and is not able to repay and then had to hand over the Hambantota port. What’s China’s plan to make sure that these governments can pay back the loans that are involved?
乐玉成：债务是一个中性词。搞经济的，多多少少都要涉及债务。但是我们讨论的债务问题同“一带一路”没有必然联系。首先，债务的成因很复杂，有多种因素。有的是经济基本面出了问题，有的是历史遗留下来多年积累的旧账，还有国际和经济环境出现变化，比如保护主义抬头、一些发达国家加息、主要储备货币升值，还有大宗商品价格跳水等。我到过赤道几内亚，这个非洲国家曾经非常贫穷，后来发现了石油，在1997年到2007年这十年油价高企时，连续十年GDP增幅超过26%，人均GDP突破2万美元。但这几年油价下跌，GDP连续负增长，去年为负5.3%，人均GDP降到8000美元。这说明，外界经济环境变化对这些国家影响很大。刚果（布）也是类似情况，过去欠了不少西方石油中间商债务。
Le Yucheng: Debt is a neutral term commonly used in economics. The debt issue we are talking about here is not necessarily linked to the BRI. To start with, the cause for debt is complicated and involves many factors, including economic fundamentals, historical debt baggage, or changing international and economic environment like rising protectionism, interest rates hike in some advanced economies, appreciation of major reserve currencies as well as plummeting commodity prices.
I’ve been to Equatorial Guinea, a small country in Africa. It used to be a very poor country, and then they discovered oil. Between 1997 and 2007 when the oil price was at its height, the country’s GDP grew by over 26% for 10 years in succession with a per capita GDP exceeding US$20,000. However, in recent years, the declining oil price has brought its GDP growth rate into the negative territory, -5.3% in 2017. And the per capita GDP fell to US$8,000. That shows how changes in external economic environment affect these countries. Republic of the Congo faces a similar situation. It has taken on a lot of debt with western oil brokers.
第二，中国是国际投融资市场的后来者，“一带一路”倡议才搞了五年，中国企业“走出去”开拓全球市场也没多少年。应该说，债务问题不应由中国来承担责任。你讲到斯里兰卡，事实上，我也高度关注该国情况。根据斯里兰卡央行2017年度报告，其外债总额是500多亿美元。中国的债务占10%左右，而且中国60%以上贷款是优贷，利率远低于国际市场。斯里兰卡也发行了不少主权债券，吸引美国和西方投资者，市场借贷主要来自主权债券，占斯里兰卡外债的39%。亚洲开发银行债务占14%，日本12%，世行11%，中国只占10%。
Secondly, China is a latecomer in international investment and financing markets. It’s just been five years since the BRI was put forward. And it hasn’t been that many years since Chinese companies started to explore the global market. So one should not hold China accountable for all the debts.
You mentioned Sri Lanka. I have followed the situation in Sri Lanka closely. According to the 2017 annual report issued by its central bank, Sri Lanka’s total foreign debt is over US$50 billion. China only accounts for about 10%. Plus, over 60% of Chinese loans are concessional loans, with an interest rate much lower than the international level.
Sri Lanka has issued a lot of sovereign bonds to attract American and Western investors. So government financing constitutes a major source of market lending, which takes up 39% of the total external debt. The country has also borrowed from other sources, the ADB 14%, Japan 12%, and the World Bank 11%. China only accounts for about 10%.
至于汉班托塔港，这个项目是应斯里兰卡请求建设和运营的。斯里兰卡多年的愿望是利用地理优势打造一个印度洋上的物流中心、仓储中心。过去因为打仗、内乱不好办，现在稳定了，特别希望建设一个国际化港口，所以找到我们。特许经营权也是斯方提出的，中国企业因为对情况不是很熟悉，起初很犹豫。后来经过反复研究、磋商，克服大量困难同斯方达成共识。中资企业同斯方成立两家合资企业并持有股份。另外我还要强调的是，汉港的主权和所有权始终是斯里兰卡的，项目建好了，需要时还可以回购中国企业股份，直至全部收回。
About the Hambantota port, the project was built and run at the request of the Sri Lankan side. For years, Sri Lanka had hoped to make good use of its geographical location and build the country into a logistic and warehouse hub in the Indian ocean. In the past, because of civil war and conflict, they were unable to do so. Now the situation is stable, to build an international port is back on their agenda. And they looked for help from China.
The idea of the operation right also came from the Sri Lankan side. The Chinese company was hesitant at first because they were not familiar with such situation. After careful studies and rounds of consultation and negotiation, the Chinese company overcame difficulties and reached agreement with the Sri Lankan side to set up two joint ventures, and had acquired corresponding stakes.
I want to stress that the sovereignty over and ownership of the Hambantota port belong to Sri Lanka throughout the process. When it is done, if it so needs, Sri Lanka can repurchase part of or all stakes from the Chinese company until it takes it all back.
我还想讲，中国的投资重点是基建项目，这些项目见效可能比较慢，但是毕竟是有效资产，而且还会升值。长远看来，对这些国家是有利的。就好比年轻人贷款买房子，虽然背负一些债务，但毕竟有了自己的房子，是自己的资产。中国有句话叫“要想富，先修路”。非洲国家长期以来也得到西方不少援助，但为什么发展还是很慢？我觉得一个很重要的原因就是基础设施建设一直落后。我到过非洲，很多国家之间没有直航，没有直达火车，甚至公路都没有。从一个非洲国家到另一个非洲国家，要经过巴黎或苏黎世转机。在基础设施如此短缺的情况下，经济怎么可能得到很好的发展？所以中国投资非洲的基础设施，实际上是找到了影响非洲发展的问题症结所在。
In addition, Chinese investment is mainly in the infrastructure sector. It may take a long time to yield returns, but they are valid assets whose value will grow in time. So in the long run, it is beneficial to host countries. Just like when young people buy a house with mortgages, they may take on some debt, but they have a place to live and they have their own assets.
We Chinese often say that if you want to get rich, build roads first. Africa has for many years received certain assistance from Western countries. But why couldn’t it achieve faster development? One important reason is the underdevelopment of infrastructure. I have been to Africa and I know that many African countries, although in the same continent, are not connected by direct flights, railways or even roads. You have to fly to Paris or Zurich in order to get to another African country. How can the economy grow with such underdeveloped infrastructure. By investing in infrastructure, China is helping address the bottleneck that’s been holding back Africa’s development.
非洲急需要公路、铁路、发电厂、飞机场、码头这样的基础设施，中国在这方面投入比较多。这些设施将慢慢对当地经济产生拉动作用。一条路不是简单的交通线，而是一个经济带，一条经济走廊，可以带动整个区域经济发展。《福布斯》杂志测算，中国在非洲的基建项目每年为非洲创造了500亿美元收益。我们建造蒙内铁路，累计为肯尼亚创造了近5万个工作岗位，带动GDP增长约1.5%。中巴经济走廊2016年为巴基斯坦GDP增长贡献了2.5%，巴当年经济增长率是4.7%。中方承建的斯里兰卡普特拉姆燃煤电站供应斯全国超过40%的电力，解决了斯2000多万人的用电问题。非洲1/3新增的电力受益于中国投资项目。“一带一路”倡议提出以来的5年期间，非洲新增了四条中国建设的铁路：蒙内铁路、亚吉铁路、阿卡铁路（在尼日利亚）、安哥拉本格拉铁路。我们在这么短时间内提供了这么多的基础设施建设，而且建成了，这是“一带一路”的重要贡献。
So Africa has a great need for infrastructure, including roads, railways, power plants, airports and sea ports. Chinese investment in these areas will help boost the local economy in time. A road is not just a means of transportation, but an economic belt or corridor that will catalyze the development of the whole region.
According to Forbes, Chinese investment in Africa’s infrastructure has generated US$50 billion in revenue for host countries every year. The Mombasa-Nairobi railway China helped build has created nearly 50,000 jobs for Kenya and driven its GDP up by 1.5%. CPEC, the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, contributed 2.5 percentage points to Pakistan’s GDP in 2016, which grew by 4.7%. In Sri Lanka, the Puttalam coal fired plant built by China is now providing over 40% of the country’s electricity, benefiting 20 million plus people. About one third of additional electricity added to grid in Africa is attributable to China-invested projects.
In the past five years since the BRI was proposed, four railways undertaken by China in Africa were completed, i.e. the Mombasa-Nairobi railway, the Addis Ababa-Djibouti railway, the Abuja-Kaduna railway in Nigeria and the Benguela railway in Angola. The fact that China has delivered all these much needed infrastructure in a short period of time shows the BRI is making a big difference.
中国企业投资时也要讲经济效益，做了充分的调研论证和严格的测算，还参考了信用评级。我们不是过度投资，而是量力而行。有些国家提出一些不切实际的项目，我们还劝他们不要把摊子铺得太大。当然，现在有些国家债务比较重，我们也能理解，但是中国不逼债，有困难我们通过双边协商灵活处置。这次中非合作论坛北京峰会期间，习近平主席宣布免除非洲与中国建交的最不发达国家等2018年底到期的无息贷款类债务。所以，有些媒体指责中国制造了债务陷阱，我觉得不能接受，我们做出的是贡献。到底我们提供的是“馅饼”，还是“陷阱”，还是让事实和实践来回答，“让子弹再飞一会儿”，不要急于下结论。
When making investment decisions, Chinese companies make sure that they are economically viable, with rigorous feasibility study and evaluation and by factoring in credit rating. We do things according to our ability. Likewise, we advise countries to act within their means and not to overstretch themselves when they consider projects that are not in line with local conditions.
Some media reports say China has created “traps” for certain countries. We find it unacceptable because we have made contributions to those countries. What does China bring to those countries? Is it a pie or a pitfall? Let facts and results speak for themselves. Better be patient for a while and do not jump to conclusions.
媒体爱用“陷阱”这个词，比如修昔底德陷阱、金德伯格陷阱、中等收入陷阱等，我们认为这太悲观了。我们中国人讲机遇大于挑战，办法总比问题多，即使有危机也是危中有机，看问题更乐观一些。看待债务问题也是如此。一些国家是有负债，但跨过这个困难，可能经济就有大的提升。中国也有过债务困难，但我们想办法克服，所以实现了快速发展。想舒舒服服地、不欠债还能过上好日子，不努力、不刻苦、不奋斗，幸福生活不会从天上掉下来。这是我们的体会，跟你分享。
The media likes the word “trap”, the “Thucydides trap”, the “Kindleberger trap” and the “middle income trap”. In our view, it represents a rather pessimistic perspective. We Chinese always believe that there are more opportunities than challenges, and more solutions than problems. Even in crisis, there lies opportunities. Being optimistic is important, which is also true when it comes to the debt problem. For those countries that are grappling with debts, once they pull it through, their economy may face a bright outlook. China was also financially stripped at some point in the past. But we dealt with it and made progress in our development. It is not realistic to expect a happy life to fall into your lap without working hard for it and taking risks, including taking on some debt in this case.
吉密欧：您曾经担任中国驻印度大使，印度显然对中巴经济走廊有较大担忧，因为他们对该走廊经过的一些地方有领土主张。我想问，“一带一路”倡议没有纳入印度是不是一个问题，接下来如何解决这一问题？
Jamil Anderlini: You were the Ambassador to India. So I do want to ask about India. They are obviously a bit worried about CPEC because they claim some of the territory that it goes through. So I’m wondering, is it a problem that India is not so far involved in this. And what might be the next step to try and deal with that?
乐玉成：我担任过中国驻印度大使，我感觉中印两国虽在一些问题上存在分歧，但都面临着许多共同的发展任务。今年以来，习近平主席同莫迪总理三次会晤达成的一个共识，就是中印要做支持对方实现各自美好梦想的合作伙伴。中印关系正在进入新阶段，呈现新气象。
Le Yucheng: Indeed, I served as the Chinese Ambassador to India. I know that although China and India may not see eye to eye on every issue, the two countries face similar development agenda. This year, President Xi and Prime Minister Modi met three times. One important consensus they reached is that China and India need to be cooperation partners that support each other in realizing their respective dreams. China-India relationship is now in a new stage and showing a new momentum.
克什米尔问题是印巴之间历史遗留问题。我们主张印巴双方通过对话协商妥善解决，不偏袒任何一方。中国同巴控克区接壤，那是我们通向巴基斯坦的必经之地。我们在那里有一些民生和经济项目，但是不针对第三方，中国无意介入印巴之间的争议。印度对“一带一路”倡议有保留，但是中印务实合作有很多，包括特变电工在古吉拉特邦建造了一个产业园，在当地很受欢迎。我们帮助印度火车提速，建新的火车站，中印共同建设孟中印缅经济走廊。印度还是亚投行创始成员国，现在亚投行20%的项目投在印度，所以印度是“一带一路”倡议实实在在的受益者。
Kashmir is an issue between India and Pakistan that is left from history. We believe the two parties should resolve the issue properly through dialogue and consultation. We don’t side with either party.
China borders Pakistan-controlled Kashmir, which is the only passageway linking the two countries. China is involved in some livelihood and economic development projects there. Those projects are not directed at any third party, and China has no intention of intervening into their dispute.
India may have its own views on the BRI. But China and India are cooperating closely on practical projects. TBEA, a Chinese company, has set up an industrial park in Gujarat, which is welcomed by the local community. China is also helping India increase the speed of its existing railways and build new railway stations. The two countries are also working on Bangladesh-China-India-Myanmar Economic Corridor. In addition, India is a founding member of the AIIB. About 20% of the projects funded by AIIB are in India. So India has gained tangible benefits from the BRI.
吉密欧：我刚刚从巴基斯坦回来，在那里待了5天。巴基斯坦安全形势比过去几年有了改善，但仍然不安全。中国如何确保在巴基斯坦和阿富汗这类“一带一路”沿线国家项目的安全，是否有可能在此类国家部署军队或安全人员，以保障“一带一路”项目和中国公民的安全？
Jamil Anderlini: Thinking about Pakistan. It’s interesting because I was there for about five days. The security situation seems much better than it was just a few years ago. I wonder it’s still not very safe. So how does China make sure that these projects are safe? For example, in Pakistan? Maybe Afghanistan? Could you ever see a situation where we put Chinese troops or Chinese security to protect the BRI and Chinese workers and citizens?
乐玉成：“一带一路” 涉及的国家很多，的确包含一些不稳定地区，但确保“一带一路”安全主要依靠当地政府。我们同有关国家签署的共建“一带一路”合作协议都包括驻在国负责项目安全的条款。巴基斯坦成立了专门的安保部队维护中巴经济走廊安全。
Le Yucheng: The BRI involves a lot of countries. In some places, the situation is not secure yet. Primarily, we look to the government of host countries to provide for the security of BRI projects. The BRI cooperation agreements we have signed with various countries include provisions that the host countries will take up the security responsibility. For instance, Pakistan has set up a special force for the security of CPEC.
我们认为不发展才是最大的安全隐患。“一带一路”搞好了，自然会增进地区安全。中国没有利用“一带一路”安保问题寻求建立海外军事基地的意图，我们奉行和平的外交政策和防御性国防政策。但是中国也是个大国，对世界和平安全负有特殊责任，参与了联合国框架下的国际反恐、维和、打击海盗等行动。一些军人走出国门长期在海外保障和平，自然需要物质等方面的保障，类似吉布提的保障基地就很有必要。但是我想指出，我们在海外的军事存在比一些大国要少得多、小得多，而且我们不对别国进行军事干涉，更不侵犯别国领土主权。为了保护海外公民的利益和安全，外交部有领事保护机制，但这跟建立海外军事基地没有关系，我们通过各种方式保护我们的公民。
In our view, the lack of development is the biggest security risk. Progress made in the BRI will contribute to greater regional security. We have no intention of using the security of the BRI to set up overseas military bases, as we pursue an independent foreign policy of peace and a defense policy that is defensive in nature.
That said, as a major country, China shoulders special responsibility for world peace and security. And China has taken part in the UN-led peacekeeping operations and efforts against terrorism and piracy. As Chinese servicemen and women help maintain peace in other parts of the world, far away from home for months even years, they need logistic support including supplies. The Djibouti base is set up for that purpose.
It must be pointed out that China’s military presence overseas is much smaller and much less than other major countries. We never seek military intervention in other countries, least of all do we infringe upon other countries’ territorial sovereignty.
To protect the interests and safety of Chinese nationals overseas, the Foreign Ministry has put in place a consular protection mechanism, which however, has nothing to do with overseas military bases. It is one of the many means for the government to protect Chinese nationals.
吉密欧：我想问关于新疆的问题，过去几年中，新疆进行大规模安全打击的原因是什么？这对“一带一路”经过新疆延伸到有关国家会有什么影响？
Jamil Anderlini: I want to ask you about Xinjiang. Can you tell us what’s the main reason for the security crackdown in the last couple of years? What does it mean for Belt and Road going into the neighboring countries through that region?
乐玉成：新疆首要的问题是稳定。前些年，新疆自治区出现了一些极端主义和恐怖主义，特别是暴力恐怖主义不仅对当地人民生命财产造成危害，而且还蔓延到北京、昆明等城市。所以，政府必须坚决打击。对恐怖分子、暴恐分子手软，就是对人民心硬。
Le Yucheng: For Xinjiang, stability is of paramount importance. A few years ago, extremism and terrorism, violent terrorism in particular, caused casualties and economic losses not just in Xinjiang but also in cities including Beijing and Kunming. Therefore, the government must resolutely crack down on terrorism. Being soft on violent terrorists is tantamount to being harsh on the people.
我们这些年在维护新疆稳定、促进新疆发展方面投入很大，也采取了有效措施，总体上稳定了形势，经济也得到了发展，老百姓有了安全感。新疆经济去年增长7.6%，高出全国平均水平。我去年去新疆旅游，亲眼目睹了新疆的稳定和安全。这就是治理的成果，对此当地老百姓是非常赞成和拥护的。中国政府不会允许新疆成为第二个叙利亚、利比亚或者伊拉克。如果新疆动乱蔓延到境外，就会影响中亚和中东地区的稳定，可能也会波及欧洲。
In recent years, we have channeled substantial resources to Xinjiang for maintaining stability and promoting development. The measures we have taken have paid off, as evidenced by greater stability, a growing economy and a stronger sense of security among its people. In 2017, Xinjiang’s economy grew by 7.6%, higher than the national average. Last year, I took a trip to Xinjiang, and I saw close-up the stability and development there, which has been the result of all the efforts we have made, efforts that are endorsed and supported by the people of Xinjiang. The Chinese government will not allow Xinjiang to become another Syria, Libya or Iraq. Furthermore, the spillover of instability in Xinjiang may affect stability in Central Asia and the Middle East, or even Europe.
“一带一路”对新疆的稳定和发展也有积极意义。新疆是中国西向的重要通道或者桥头堡，该地区同其他西部省份已从开放的“后卫”变成“前锋”，可以形成新的开放格局。
The BRI will also contribute to Xinjiang’s stability and development. As an important gateway linking China to regions westwards, Xinjiang, together with other western provinces, have become the forward in opening-up, no longer the backfielder they used to be. This marks a new dimension of China’s opening-up.
吉密欧：美国提出“印太战略”，近来承诺在亚太地区进行基础设施建设。您认为，该战略同“一带一路”倡议是合作还是竞争关系？
Jamil Anderlini: The US has said they want to look at the idea of the Indo-Pacific, and they want to fund some investments there. Do you think this is something that can work with the BRI? Or is it a competitor for the BRI?
乐玉成：亚太地区基础设施建设、互联互通需求很大，缺口很大。据有关机构统计，该地区每年大概需要约17000亿美元投入基础性建设，中国不可能一家包办，需要大家一起干。我们希望各方提出积极的、有利于促进地区发展的建设倡议，达到“相互补台，好戏连台”的效果。
Le Yucheng: The Asia-Pacific has a huge demand for infrastructure investment and connectivity. At the same time, there is a big gap in resources. Some institutions estimate that every year, the Asia-Pacific needs about US$1.7 trillion of investment in infrastructure. Apparently, that cannot be filled by China alone. Everybody needs to pitch in. We welcome various initiatives that will be conducive to regional development and hope to see them complement and reinforce each other.
关于美国的印太战略或者印太经济愿景，我发现有很多类似版本，有日本版、美国版、印度版，东南亚也在酝酿自己的版本。对有利于地区发展、合作的倡议，我们都持开放态度，但坚决反对将印太战略作为工具抗衡“一带一路”，甚至遏制中国。我们主张同心协力，而不是各怀心思，相互牵制必然相互抵消，结果不是1+1>2，而是1-1<0。无论是太平洋、印度洋，还是大西洋，我们都主张变成各显身手的大舞台，而不是竞争博弈的角力场，不应该相互“较量”，而应该相互“照亮”。
The United States has announced its Indo-Pacific strategy or Indo-Pacific Economic Vision. As we have seen, there are various versions of Indo-Pacific strategy, the Japanese, American and Indian version. Southeast Asian countries are also working on their own version. We are open to all initiatives that will help regional development and cooperation. What we are firmly against is attempts to use the Indo-Pacific strategy as a tool to counter the BRI or even contain China. We hope to see parties working in concert rather than pursuing their own agenda and undercutting each other’s efforts. If that’s the case, instead of one plus one equals more than two, the result will be one minus one is less than zero. Whether it is the Pacific Ocean, the Indian Ocean, or the Atlantic Ocean, they should serve as a broad platform that everyone brings into play their strengths, not a theater for rivalry. Parties should work together in concert instead of in contest.
“一带一路”倡议是开放的，不搞“小圈子”，主张战略对接，反对相互排斥。我们一直同各方开展“一带一路”三方或多方合作。德国西门子公司和上百家中国企业携手开拓“一带一路”市场。英国渣打银行2020年底前要为该倡议的相关项目提供至少200亿美元融资支持。美国通用电气公司从该倡议获得了价值23亿美元的设备订单。这样的三方合作，应该大力提倡。
The BRI is an open initiative, not an exclusive bloc. It aims to connect development strategies rather than seek to exclude each other. We have been working with various parties for trilateral cooperation or multi-party cooperation in the BRI framework. Siemens has partnered with over a hundred Chinese companies to explore the BRI market. Standard Chartered will be providing at least US$20 billion of financing to BRI projects by 2020. GE has landed US$2.3 billion of orders from the BRI. Such trilateral cooperation should be encouraged in the future.
吉密欧：我想简短地再就新疆提一个问题，现在媒体都在报道“再教育营”，您怎么看这个问题？
Jamil Anderlini: I want to go back just very briefly to Xinjiang. The media is talking about these camps in Xinjiang. Do you see these camps as part of the solution? Like this is part of stabilizing the region?
乐玉成：我想重申，对新疆而言，稳定是最重要的。为什么新疆会出现恐怖极端分子和组织，就是因为他们被极端思想，特别是伊斯兰极端思想洗脑，才走上了危害家庭、危害社会、害人害己的邪路、绝路。我觉得有必要挽救这些被极端思想洗脑的人，要采取措施帮他们祛除头脑中的极端主义思想，使他们回归正常状态，回归社会！我们主张有病就要早治，不要等到病入膏肓。对有些人，发现有宗教极端思想的苗头，就要帮助他祛除，不能眼看着他走上害人害己的道路。
Le Yucheng: Again, stability is most important for Xinjiang. Why are there terrorists or extremists and their organizations in Xinjiang? Because some people are brainwashed by radical ideologies, especially radical Islamic ideologies, and choose to pursue a wrong and destructive cause, posing a threat to their family and the public and ruining their own life. We need to help them deradicalize, return to a normal life and reintegrate into the society. When there is an illness, treat it before it is too late. Whenever there is a sign of people being influenced by radical religious ideas, we need to help them rather than sit on our hands and do nothing as they move to the point of no return.
我们这一切也是依法依规进行的，我们有刑法，有反恐法。依法维护国家安全是各国通行做法。英国也发生过恐怖袭击事件。2005年7月7日，伦敦地铁恐怖袭击事件发生时，我有个同事就住在恐袭事件地铁站不远处，他五岁的小孩亲身经历了这起事件，到现在都忘不了那段经历。各国政府都有责任确保国家和民众的安全。
The government has done so within the confines of law, including the criminal law and the anti-terrorism law. All governments act to uphold their national security in accordance with the law. The UK is also a victim of terrorist attacks. On 7 July 2005, London was hit by a series of bombings. One of my colleagues lived close to one of the underground stations that was hit by the bombing. His five-year-old kid experienced that horrible tragedy and is still traumatized, unable to forget that experience even today. All governments are obliged to keep the country and their people safe.
吉密欧：中国政府和官员经常说，中国是最大的发展中国家，人均GDP低于很多国家，您认为这个时候开展宏伟的“一带一路”建设会不会有些早？中国国内有很多挑战，您是否认为投向该倡议的资金可以用于自身发展？
Jamil Anderlini: Chinese government and Chinese officials often say China is a developing country and rightly points out that per capita GDP is still much lower than other countries. So do you think maybe this is a bit early for China to be doing something like BRI while there are so many challenges back home. Do you think that maybe that some of this investment and money could be spent back here in China?
乐玉成：中国是最大的发展中国家，人均GDP列在70位以后，还有3000万贫困人口，相当于英国人口的二分之一，发展不充分不平衡问题很突出。但我们不觉得现在搞对外合作太早，恰恰是很有必要，因为我们生活在全球化时代，各国利益相互依存得更加紧密，中国同世界的利益融合不断加深。我们石油对外依存度超过70%，每年进口大豆9000多万吨，其他大宗商品对外依赖度也很高，不可能关起门来搞建设。习近平主席多次宣布中国改革开放大门不会关上，只会越开越大，我们欢迎各国企业到中国来，同时也鼓励我们的企业走出去。
Le Yucheng: China is still the largest developing country. Our per capita GDP ranks behind 70th in the world, and we have over 30 million poor people, which is half of UK’s population. And we do face the daunting challenge of inadequate and unbalanced development. But I don’t think it is too early to pursue external cooperation at this point. On the contrary, that’s what is needed at the moment. Because today’s world is a globalized world, countries’ interests are more closely intertwined than ever before, and China’s interests are deeply integrated with the rest of the world.
China imports about 70% of its oil needs and more than 90 million tons of soybeans every year. We also depend heavily on imports for many other commodities, which makes it impossible for us to develop behind closed doors.
President Xi has made clear repeatedly that the door of reform and opening-up will not close, but will only open wider and wider. We welcome foreign investment to China. At the same time, we also encourage Chinese companies to explore the global market.
改革开放经过40年，也到了进一步升级的时候。“一带一路”就是改革开放的“升级版”。通过“一带一路”可以促进贸易多元化，可以在全球范围内配置生产要素和发展资源，可以进一步完善改革开放格局。从沿海开放向沿海沿边同时开放并举，使我们的西部地区进一步成为开放前沿。
This year marks the 40th anniversary of China’s reform and opening-up. It’s about time to take it to a higher level. The BRI is an upgraded version of China’s reform and opening-up. It will help diversify trade, allocate production factors and development resources globally, and improve the reform and opening-up structure of China. Following the coastal areas, the hinterland is rapidly catching up, making the western region the new forefront of China’s opening-up.
我们通过“一带一路”促进自身发展的同时，也向一些发展中国家提供力所能及的帮助。我们认为，在当今世界无论是一个人还是一个国家，都不能太自私，不能老是讲本国利益至上，更不能见利忘义、以邻为壑。五年来我们同“一带一路”相关国家的货物贸易额累计超过5万亿美元，对外直接投资超过700亿美元，对外承包工程合同金额超过5000亿美元。去年“一带一路”国际合作高峰论坛期间，我们同有关国家达成了279项合作成果。这些成果已经或者正在得到落实。我们在全球各地建设的82个经贸合作区上缴东道国税费超过20亿美元，为当地创造20多万个就业岗位。我们使世界上最大的内陆国哈萨克斯坦拥有了出海口，可以通过连云港来到太平洋；让老挝可望通过中老铁路由陆锁国变成陆联国；让群岛国家马尔代夫实现了拥有桥梁的梦想；让白俄罗斯第一次有了自己的轿车制造业，这个国家的工业园成为欧亚地区面积最大的工业园。印度尼西亚雅万铁路、塞尔维亚匈塞铁路已经开工建设，刚才我讲的非洲四条铁路已经完工，还有其他公路铁路正在建设。这些“一带一路”的早期收获，表明该倡议契合中国发展实际，它不超前，而是顺应和引领了时代的潮流。
We hope that through the BRI, we can achieve greater development and also be better positioned to help other developing countries. We believe that people, or countries for that matter, can’t just care about themselves, put self-interest above everything else or seek a beggar-thy-neighbor approach.
For the past five years, the total volume of goods traded between China and BRI countries has exceeded US$5 trillion. Direct Chinese investment surpassed US$70 billion, and the total value of contracted projects is over US$500 billion.
During last year’s Belt and Road Forum, China and relevant countries reached a total of 279 outcomes, which have been or on course to be delivered. Around the world, China has helped build 82 economic and trade cooperation zones, contributing over US$2 billion of tax revenues and over 200,000 jobs to host countries.
With our cooperation, Kazakhstan, the largest landlocked country, has a sea outlet and can now access the Pacific through the Lianyungang port in China. The China-Laos railway is expected to turn Laos, a landlocked country, into a land-linked country. And Maldives, a country of islands, has seen its dream of being connected by bridge come true. For the first time in its history, Belarus has its own passenger car production facility, and the industrial park set up by China there is the largest in Eurasia.
The construction of the Jakarta-Bandung railway and the Belgrade-Budapest railway has been kicked off. Four railways have been completed in Africa, and a number of railways and roads are under way. These are the early harvests of the BRI and they fully demonstrate that the BRI is in line with China’s development stage. Rather than being ahead of the times, the BRI is in keeping with and leading the trend of the times.
