Transcript of Ambassador H.E. Lu Shaye’s Interview with Ottawa Life Magazine文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/3564.html
驻加拿大大使卢沙野与《渥太华生活》杂志发行人多诺万访谈实录文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/3564.html
文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/3564.html
On August 23, Ambassador Lu Shaye met in the Chinese Embassy with Mr. Dan Donovan, Publisher and Managing Editor of Ottawa Life Magazine, and received his interview. The transcript of the meeting and the interview is as follows:文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/3564.html
文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/3564.html
2017年8月23日，驻加拿大大使卢沙野在使馆接受《渥太华生活》杂志发行人丹·多诺万采访。全文如下：文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/3564.html
文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/3564.html
Lu Shaye: Welcome to the Embassy.文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/3564.html
文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/3564.html
卢大使：欢迎来到中国驻加拿大使馆。很高兴同你见面。文章源自英文巴士-https://www.en84.com/3564.html
Dan: Thank you.
多诺万：谢谢。
Lu Shaye: I am glad to meet you and exchange views with you on questions of common concern.
卢大使：很高兴同你见面。
Dan: I am pleased to meet you. I’ve been publishing this magazine for 20 years, and I took a leave for 5 years to a very large global company called Magna International. We got operations in China. Very fascinating with the Chinese, but particularly fascinating with you, you’ve made a big impact since you arrived. People taking notice of you and some of your remarks which I was very interested in.
多诺万：很高兴见到您。我办《渥太华生活》杂志20年了。不过中途离开了5年，去一家叫麦格纳国际的跨国公司工作，它在中国也有业务。我与中国人相处很愉快，特别是有机会见到您。您履新后发挥了很大的影响力，人们关注您和您的一些言论，我也很感兴趣。
I have many colleagues in government, and in national media here and I’d like to think that I am fairly informed about China-Canada matters. But I’d like to ask you from my personal curiosity about some of your comments you made and try to understand your perspective.
我在加政府和主流媒体圈中有很多朋友，可以说从他们那里已了解到不少关于中加关系的情况。但我还是很希望就您所作的一些评论向您讨教，以更好理解您的观点。
So one thing you said when you were speaking to the Canadian Press was fascinating. And I was looking at your background, and you are a policy person, and you worked at the epicenter of policy in China. So my thinking would be that, I always noticed the Chinese are very precise. So when you say something, there’s usually reason behind it. And the impression I got and many my colleagues in government and media got after you made those remarks was that, you are saying that in terms of relations between our countries, we have to separate trade and development vs. social issues as human rights and these types of things.
我看了您的简历，您曾在中国的政策中心部门从事研究工作。我一直觉得，中国人很精准，总是言出有据。我的第一个问题是，您曾提到中加关系中应将经贸合作与人权等社会问题分开讨论。一些加拿大人和政府官员与中国人谈到人权时摆出教训的姿态，我能感觉到您对此失望。这是一个难题吗？我们总是说你们有人权问题，但我们也有。
So that’s the first part of the question. At some point, I am curious as to why other countries when they, we go out China for example, we say you have human rights issues, and you do, but so do we. Is it a difficult thing? I sensed the frustration in you that some Canadians and government people seemed to be very judgemental when they deal with the Chinese about those things. Would that be accurate?
Long question (smile). Before you answer, respectfully, can I also add one thing for context? The reason I ask this question is, because as a Canadian, I see our government, and I used to be in government, I used to work for former Prime Minister, you know, by seeing it doing this…but we have our problems here with our first nation people. We have a lot of problems here, we have our former supreme court justice who has said that what happened to our aboriginal people in residential schools was a cultural genocide. We are signatory to the International Treaty on Torture but we have cases of hundreds of people who have been kept in solitary confinement, one case in northern Ontario for 4 years. So if Canada is gonna ask these things, but I noticed that the Chinese and most other governments we do this to, they never respond by saying “What about you?” And is that appropriate? I am just curious of your… Ambassador Shaye’s frustration, but I noticed you didn’t point out some of our foibles.
这个问题比较长（笑）。在您回答之前，请允许我再补充一点背景。我问这个问题的原因在于，作为加拿大人，作为曾在政府工作过的人，我知道我们的“第一民族”（注：印第安人原住民）问题很严重。加拿大前最高法院法官曾说在原住民寄宿学校所发生的事情就是文化灭绝。加是国际反酷刑条约缔约国，但发生过数百起单独监禁犯人的事件（注：联合国已经把单独监禁超过15天定义为违反人权的酷刑折磨行为），在安省北部一名犯人甚至被单独监禁了4年。但我发现，当加拿大对别国提及人权问题时，中国和其他很多国家从不反问：“你们做得如何？”我注意到您的失望情绪，但您从未指出过加方的缺点。
Lu Shaye: It’s about the different cultures between China and Canada. People should be modest and respectful to others according to Chinese traditional culture. We have an old saying: Never do to others what you would not like them to do to you. It’s against our will to impose our views on others. We would like to present our views, but it’s up to you to decide whether to take it. We will not force others to accept something, nor will we be forced to accept something by others. Canada which belongs to western culture is so different from China that is part of oriental culture. Through my experience of dealing with westerners, I feel sometimes the westerners, thinking they are always correct, are fond of lecturing people and teaching others how to do. Maybe in western cultural origins there is dualism, black or white, insisting there’s but one truth, which if I possess, and if your opinion is different from mine, you will stand on the opposite side of the truth. While Chinese are different. We don’t think it’s a black-or-white world. We think things can be like this and, at the same time, like that. Due to 500 years of capitalism development and the modernization of their economy and society, the westerners think they are superior to other nations and are qualified to teach other countries to follow suit. These are the western culture concept and western countries’ way of doing things in international society that I sensed. As to the specific question of human rights issue, what China opposes is western countries’ fancying themselves as preachers demanding others to do this or that. That’s also why I stress many times in my dialogues with Canadian media that human rights issue should be discussed separately from economic and trade issues. Because east and west have different criterion of value on human rights issue, whose criterion should we use to judge human rights situation? Western countries’ or China’s? It’s a question without a fixed answer. Rather than quarreling this futilely and delaying the FTA negotiation, it is better to put aside this question and focus on discussing the free trade deal. The reason I didn’t touch upon human rights violation cases in past and present Canada is not because I didn’t know them, but because I am not willing to drag the skeleton out of its closet based on Chinese cultural traditions.
卢大使：这里面涉及到中加两国不同文化。中国的文化传统是谦和，尊重对方。我们有一句话叫做“己所不欲，勿施于人”，因此我们不太愿意把自己的观点强加于人。我们很愿意介绍自己的看法，但是愿不愿意接受由对方自己决定。我们不愿让对方感觉强迫他们接受什么，当然也不愿让外人教我们怎么做。而加拿大属于西方文化，同中国的东方文化截然不同。从我与西方人接触的经历中，我感觉西方人好为人师，总认为自己是对的，喜欢教别人该怎么做。因为西方的文化渊源是二元论，非黑即白，真理只有一个，而掌握真理的是我，你跟我意见不同，就站在了真理的对立面。中国人不同，不认为世界非黑即白，而认为某一件事可以同时是这样又是那样。西方由于近500年资本主义发展，经济社会实现了现代化，就认为比其他国家民族有优越性，认为有资格教导其他国家民族遵从西方的那一套去做，这就是我感觉到的西方文化理念以及目前西方国家在国际社会的行为方式。具体到人权问题，西方国家总认为自己有资格当教师爷，要求别人这样或那样，这就是中国所反对的。这也是为什么我在与加媒体接触中反复强调应将人权问题与经贸问题区分开的理由。因为我们认为，在人权问题上东西方本来就存在不同的价值判断标准，那该用谁的标准判断人权状况呢？西方国家的还是中国的？这是扯不清的问题。与其费口舌扯这个问题，耽误双方自贸协定谈判，不如先撇开这一问题，集中精力把自贸协定谈成。我不去揪加拿大历史上和现实中侵犯人权的事情，不是因为我不知道，而是本着中国文化传统，不去揭老底而已。
Dan: So I have an observation. There’s a view in media circles, for example, in national media circles in Canada, and certainly in the government that 2 years ago (Editor’s note: it was last June actually) when the Chinese Foreign Affairs Minister visited and he was speaking about the new silk road and the development in China. He gave a press conference at Foreign Affairs (Ministry), and at one point he admonished the Canadian media. Many people felt that because Stéphane Dion, our Foreign Minister didn’t respond appropriately to that, and that’s why he was moved. They said he was weak. Because there’s a very strong Chinese foreign affairs minister in, and our minister responded very weakly to his comments, to the press. So I am just wondering if you are aware of that.
多诺万：我想提一件事。2年前（注：应为去年6月），中国外长访加时，在记者会上教训了加媒体。加媒体界，当然也包括政界很多人认为，时任斯特凡·迪翁外长对此没有给予恰当的回应，他的回应过于软弱，因此后来被解职了。卢大使是否知道此事？
Lu Shaye: So the Canadian media thought Foreign Minister Wang Yi overreacted. But do they remember that in 2015 a Chinese correspondent who was visiting arctic region with then Prime Minister Harper wanted to raise a question at the Prime Minister’s press conference, but was refused, stopped and dragged out of the scene? Is that how the Canadian side treat journalists? Is that normal?
卢大使：加媒体认为王外长的反应过激。但是加媒体是否记得，2015年，一名中国记者随哈珀总理访问北极地区时，在总理的记者招待会上想提问，但是被拒绝、被制止甚至被拖出记者会现场。加方是这样对待媒体记者的吗？难道这样正常吗？
Dan: Just share the personal view, ‘cause I am trying to provide my own observation.
多诺万：只是分享个人观点，说说我自己的一些观察。
Lu Shaye: This is how the two sides see the relevant question differently. The Canadian side got annoyed just because Chinese Foreign Minister merely made a fairly strong response to a Canadian journalist’s human rights question, whereas the Chinese journalist even didn’t have the right to raise questions. Wasn’t that a violation on human rights?
卢大使：这里存在着双方对有关问题的不同看法。中国外长仅仅对加记者提出的人权问题作出比较强硬的回应，加方就不高兴了。而中国记者甚至都没有提出问题的权利，这难道不是侵犯人权吗？
I have a principle when talking with media that how to raise questions is your business, but how to answer is mine. I don’t interfere journalists’ rights to raise questions, and at the same time, journalists are not in the position to let off steam to how I answer them. According to my observation, sometimes Canadian media, like other western media, often raise questions unscrupulously, regardless of relevant country’s specific situation and interviewee’s feelings. But they will fly into a rage and stamp with fury when the answers they get are not quite the same with their values and feelings. They think it’s normal for themselves to criticize others and abnormal and “overreacting” for others to criticize back. Some media, public figures and politicians preach multi-culture and inclusiveness all day long, but in fact when it comes to the specific questions they forget all those and are not willing to listen to different voices and tolerate other values.
面对媒体，我有一个原则，怎么提问是记者的事，怎么回答是我的事。我不干涉记者提问的权利，媒体记者也不要对我怎么答有什么不高兴。据我观察，加拿大媒体与西方媒体一样，提出问题时可以无所顾忌，不顾忌有关国家具体情况和对方人们的感受。但回答问题时，如果与其价值观、感受稍有不同时，他们就会暴跳如雷，接受不了。他们觉得自己批评指责别人是正常的，但别人回击他就是不正常的，认为这是过激。媒体、公众人物、政治人物整天宣传多元文化、包容性，但落到具体事情上他们就不能包容不同的意见，不能包容不同的价值观。
Dan: I would say that’s very perceptive and it’s ironic and it’s very true. it’s something that I am fascinated by what the Chinese are doing. It’s a fair question because to do things here, you know China is doing great things in Canada, of course, and business, and otherwise. But you have to navigate these things. In China, you’ve build a high-speed train 400 miles per hour in 3 years. Excellent example. It’s incredible. Our country is the same size geographically, pretty close. But obviously your population (other)wise are 100 times more than us, more than 100 times. So you have expertise moving people. What I mean is that China has its incredible ingenuity and is able to move people with technology and trains like no other country. It’s amazing. We have a big problem with that. Windsor to Quebec City Corridor, high speed train, talked about 3 years. China can do that with their eyes closed. But in Canada, the most important people in that debate are not the people building the trains. It’s not the government, and it’s not the media, it’s the unions. On China, on Chinese business and the human rights component, the biggest advocate of the human rights agenda in Canada towards other countries is from the unions. The big unions, they are about labor standards, what they perceive as human rights. So I am just curious when you are here, ‘cause what you say makes a lot of sense to me, frankly, but when you’re here, will you meet with the president of the Canadian Labor Congress? Will you meet with the head of the UFCW, will you meet with the other union leaders, very important people in our country, very very important people. Because I think they are looking to understand China more. And they would love I am sure to understand you more. And also, it’s in their interest to build trains. They have workers, you know what, because what you said makes a lot of sense, but when you say to the press, they get interpreted what you say, and maybe what you are saying is not what the union leaders are hearing.
多诺万：您的话一语中的，很讽刺但完全正确。中国的能力和成就令人惊叹。比如用3年时间就建成了时速400公里的高铁，这不可思议。加拿大国土面积与中国差不多，但人口比你们少很多倍。你们比其他任何国家都擅长动员民众，集中力量办大事。我们就不行。魁北克市-温莎走廊的高铁空谈了3年了，要是中国闭着眼睛就能建成。
但您如果想提出由中国帮着修建，可能要注意一下方式方法。因为在加拿大，那些最重要的参与高铁项目讨论的人不是修建铁路的人。不是政府，也不是媒体，而是工会。同中国做生意要讲人权问题，最大的推手就是这些工会，他们关心的劳工标准就是人权问题。所以卢大使您愿意见一见劳工大会主席、食品和商业工会主席及其他工会领袖吗？他们是加拿大非常非常重要的人，他们愿意进一步了解中国，一定也希望进一步了解您。他们只是听到了您对媒体所说的话，中间有媒体的解读，也许他们听到的和您所说的并不一致。
Lu Shaye: China is capable of building large scale infrastructure projects. Chinese government always makes scientific and right decisions based on consideration of social and economic development, and people’s welfare and fundamental common interests, and on thorough investigation of the will of the people and the need of the society. Once the decision is made, we work on it with all our strength. That’s why we build large scale infrastructure projects so quickly. It took us only 3 years to build the 1400 km Beijing-Shanghai express railway. Of course, there will always be opponent voices and it’s our job to analyze if they are reasonable and correct. If they are not, and if they are against the fundamental and long-term interests of the majority of the people, we should not be affected by them. This is the Chinese way of doing things, but I am not in the position to transplant it to Canada. Canadians will make their own choice. At present, there’s no large-scale infrastructure projects going on between China and Canada, so it’s not that urgent for me to persuade Canadian unions. That I’m afraid is more of Canadian government’s job. But if there’s an opportunity, I am willing to talk with the union leaders. Canada has its own national conditions and ways of doing things, and I am not in the position to judge if it’s good or bad. What I can say is that China’s current system, pattern and practice are effective and in line with China’s reality. Labor standards, it’s one of westerners’ favorite topics. In fact, they just want other countries to follow suit. If developing countries adopt west standards such as their workers’ salary, working hours, etc., there will be no way for them to develop anymore. That’s because developing countries haven’t reached developed countries’ level. It’s not because China doesn’t want its workers to enjoy high salary and high welfare like Canadian workers, it’s because we cannot afford it at the present stage. China, though the second biggest economy in the world, has a population of 1.4 billion people whereas Canada only has the population of 36 million people. Per Capita GDP in China is only 8,000 USD, but Per Capita GDP in Canada is 40,000 USD. So it’s unreasonable to talk about labor standards regardless of countries’ conditions. It’s only a shield certain people use to excuse themselves from screwing up the economy.
卢大使：修建大型基础设施工程，中国有优势。中国政府总是从经济社会发展、人民福祉角度，从人民的根本利益、共同利益的角度考虑问题，进行深入调研，了解民意和社会需求，在此基础上进行科学正确的决策。决策一旦做出，就全力推进，所以大型基础设施能很快建成。京沪高铁长度1400公里，只用3年时间就建成了。任何事情都会有反对意见，要分析其是否合理，是否正确，如果不合理，违背绝大多数人民的根本和长远利益，那就不要受其影响。这是中国的做法，我不想将其移植到加拿大，加拿大怎么做由加拿大人自己决定。目前中加之间还没有基础设施项目合作的问题，对于我来说，目前没有迫切需要做工会的工作，这恐怕更多是加政府的工作。但如有必要，我愿意与工会领导人交流。加有自己的国情和做法，我没有资格说这个好还是不好，我只能说中国现行的制度、模式和做法是有效的，是符合中国实际的。劳工标准，西方人喜欢拿这个问题说事，说到底，就是想让其他国家在这个问题上向西方看齐。西方国家工人的工资、工作时间，发展中国家都按这一标准执行的话，是永远发展不起来的，因为经济发展水平没达到。中国不是不想让自己的工人与加拿大工人一样，享受高工资高福利。但问题是，在中国现阶段我们负担不起。中国虽已是世界第二大经济体，但要负担近14亿人口，加仅需负担3600万人口。人均GDP中国只有8000多美元，而加是４万多美元。所以脱离国情谈劳工标准是不合理的，这只是某些人为自己搞不好经济而找的一个借口。
Dan: Well, the first thing I’d say is I’ve taken the most of your time, so I am not gonna take much more. But I would like to make an observation. I think, first of all, very fascinating, and very helpful to me as we continue to write about China, and we will continue to do that. Our China series in the magazine are actually very popular, and I would encourage the Ambassador to keep speaking candidly, to people while you’re here, because I think it’s refreshing and helpful. When you speak, when China says something, the Canada people listen. And I think people are fascinated for example on the train thing. People hear they build that high-speed train in China, everyday people here say: why can’t we do that? And they look at it differently. They say here wow, if we are supposed to be this developed country, we are supposed to have all this technology, why can’t we do that? So when you say that, people listen. That’s the first point.
多诺万：我已占用了您不少时间，不想占用更多。但我还是想谈一下体会。首先，您的观点很有见地，对我很有帮助，我们会继续报道中国。我们的中国系列报道很受欢迎。我建议大使继续坦诚地说出自己的观点，加拿大人愿意倾听中国发声。例如您说的高铁问题，他们听说中国修建了高铁，就会扪心自问，加是拥有高科技的发达国家，为什么我们做不到呢？所以，只要大使说，人们就会听。这是第一点。
The second point is that, we feel that our magazine is very important, especially because we’re in the capital. To explain only right things, to explain things from this Chinese perspective. To my people what you say, it’s different way of seeing things, different way of coming at things. And I think it’s a very powerful thing when you say that to people. Because it’s frankly not always the tradition with a lot of countries to do that. And especially because China is so important to our economic affairs. And people in government here have preset notions about what China is or how China should behave, which sounds quite arrogant, but they do. Here’s the way you’ve talked about these things, challenging the people here to think. You know we have trade issues with the United States. The canola market from Canada is very important to China, agriculture is very important for our people here. Softwood lumber, energy…so we are writing about these things in our magazine. And Chinese perspective on these things is very very important to our readers. So when you make a comment about that, a lot of people are interested.
第二点，我们杂志是首都的重要刊物，我们愿意展示中方的观点。对我们的读者来说，大使所谈是从另一个角度看待问题，很有说服力。尤其中国对我们的经济来说如此重要。加方有一些人对中国存在刻板印象，大使的观点能够启发他们重新思考。目前我们同美国存在贸易摩擦，中加油菜籽贸易以及农业、软木、能源合作等都是我们杂志重点关注的题材。大使如对这些话题作出评论，很多读者会感兴趣。
Lu Shaye: I quite agree with some of your views, namely, candid introduction of China’s situation to Canadian people is conducive for them to get a better understanding about China. As a matter of fact, I’ve been taking it as one of my priorities since I arrived here. I found my several frank communications with the Canadian media have caused some repercussions in the Canadian society, with a lot of friends like you giving me encouragement, and many people, including netizens and local Canadians I met during my tours in provinces, agreeing with me. Meanwhile there are critical voices. It is quite normal to hear different opinions, which means people have listened, whereas silence means a sort of failure. As you mentioned, it is important to clarify China’s position on issues of Canadians’ concern, to tell the good stories about bilateral cooperation. Unfortunately, media seldom report these good stories.
卢大使：我很赞同你的一些看法，即坦诚地向加民众介绍中国的情况有助于民众更好地了解中国。实际上我到任后也将其作为我的一项主要任务。我发现几次坦诚交流在加社会引起一定反响，很多像你这样的朋友给我鼓励，很多普通加民众，包括在网络上，包括到地方走访见到的民众，都赞同我的观点。但也有人骂我。有不同意见很正常，说明大家听进去了，如果我说的话在社会上没有一点反响，就是一种失败。你刚才讲到，就中加合作中加拿大人关心的一些问题阐明中方立场，这很重要，就是要讲中加合作中的好故事，可惜我跟媒体讲中加合作的好故事他们都不给报道。
Dan: The press has the tendency to do that. But I made the point that it’s important that people here understand the Chinese point of view. And we are very pleased and privileged to carry it in our magazine. And I extend that invitation to you, Ambassador Shaye, that if at anytime, you would like to write an op-ed to our readers, I am happy to publish it. And I think people would be very interested in you and what you have to say. And people in foreign affairs too, they look for things, and they hope to understand the perspective. And I think the most hopeful thing I come out of here today is the very important insight into you thinking, which to me, sounds very reasonable. And we want to share that in our magazine with our readers.
多诺万：这是媒体的风气问题。（但是我们杂志不一样。）我想说的是，让这里的人们了解中方的观点很重要。我们杂志非常乐意和荣幸为此尽力。我向卢大使也发出邀请，任何时候大使想写专稿我都乐意发表。读者对您本人和您的观点一定会很感兴趣。今天我最大的收获是进一步理解了大使的观点，很有道理，我们愿意通过杂志与读者分享。
Lu Shaye: I also hope to introduce and convey to the Canadian public my observations and thinkings, as well as the situation in China through your magazine. What we want to see is that through frank communication people will be able to know a real China, rather than a China in media. Of course, it’s my further wish that Canadian people see China with their own eyes. I encourage more and more Canadians to go to China, for tourism, study or business. My experience with Canadians proves that people’s impression on China will not be that bad as long as they have been there. “Seeing is believing”, “The facts speak louder than words”. China’s achievements speak for themselves, and cannot be obliterated. How can China develop so well if there’s no democracy, human rights and freedom? If one insists that there is no democracy, human rights and freedom in China even it has made great achievements, then we can draw a conclusion that a country can develop without democracy, human rights and freedom defined by the West. The norms of democracy, human rights and freedoms defined by the West are not universally applicable, and each country determines its own goals of democracy, human rights and freedom according to its own national conditions. Therefore, it is meaningless to argue over democracy and human rights issues. If there is any universal value, then as one of my Chinese friends put it, reform and opening up is the universal value. No country can develop without reform and opening up. Only we make constant reforms on systems, institutions and technologies can we keep pace with the times. If you ask me which country is the best carrying forward successful reforms, I am not bragging, I will tell you that country is China. From the year of 1978, even we can say from the year of 1949, China has been constantly seeking reforms. The purpose of the reform is not to westernize China, but to make the country more suitable for economic and social development, and to better keep up with the world trends.
卢大使：我也希望通过你们杂志，把我的一些观察和思考及中国的情况介绍、传递给加公众。我们就是希望通过坦诚的交流，让加民众了解一个真实的中国，而不是只通过媒体了解中国。当然我们更希望加民众通过自己的眼睛直接去看中国，我欢迎越来越多的加拿大人到中国旅游、学习和经商。根据我接触加拿大人的经历，只要去过中国，对中国的印象都不会差到哪里去。“百闻不如一见”，“事实胜于雄辩”，中国的发展成就摆在那里，是抹杀不掉的。如果说中国没有民主、人权和自由，那么中国怎么可能发展得那么好。如果坚持认为中国即使发展得再好也没有民主、人权、自由的话，则可以得出结论，一个国家发展可以不要西方界定的民主、人权和自由。西方界定的民主、人权和自由标准不是放之四海皆准的，每个国家根据自己的国情确定自己的民主、人权和自由的目标。因此，就民主人权问题争论是无意义的。如果说有什么价值观是普世的，我的一个中国朋友说得好，改革开放才是普世价值。任何一个国家想要发展，不开放是不行的，不改革也不行，必须不断改革制度、体系和生产技术，才能不断跟上时代发展的步伐。要论现在世界上哪个国家改革搞得最好，我不是自吹，中国搞得最好。从1978年甚至是1949年起，中国就在不断改革，改革的目的不是把中国改得更像西方国家，而是把中国改革得更适合经济社会发展，更能跟上世界潮流。
Dan: Mr. Ambassador, thank you very much. I found this meeting absolutely fascinating, and it’s been very helpful to the work I am doing. I really appreciate your insight, and it’s not only given me some more ideas for what we are writing about, but your perspective is very, very helpful. I just want you to know that with regards to our magazine, we see it as our role in this series we’ve been doing on China to bring forward these things, like to explain to our readers what you say. You know I am a student of history so I am aware of the incredible achievements China made. It’s unbelievable. Thank you for seeing me.
多诺万：大使先生，非常感谢，您的话对我的工作很有帮助，给了我很多启发。我们杂志的中国系列报道愿意发表大使的观点和文章。我是学历史的，了解中国取得的成就不可思议。谢谢您抽时间见我。
Lu Shaye: It’s been nice discussing with you. Thank you.
卢大使：谢谢你与我探讨这些问题，我们谈得很愉快。
