双语:卢沙野大使与《渥太华生活》杂志发行人多诺万访谈实录

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Full Text of Amb. Lu Shaye’s Interview with Ottawa Life Magazine

Amb. Lu Shaye’s Interview with Ottawa Life Magazine

Transcript of Ambassador H.E. Lu Shaye’s Interview with Ottawa Life Magazine

驻加拿大大使卢沙野与《渥太华生活》杂志发行人多诺万访谈实录

 

On August 23, Ambassador Lu Shaye met in the Chinese Embassy with Mr. Dan Donovan, Publisher and Managing Editor of Ottawa Life Magazine, and received his interview. The transcript of the meeting and the interview is as follows:

 

2017年8月23日,驻加拿大大使卢沙野在使馆接受《渥太华生活》杂志发行人丹·多诺万采访。全文如下:

 

Lu Shaye: Welcome to the Embassy.

 

卢大使:欢迎来到中国驻加拿大使馆。很高兴同你见面。

 

Dan: Thank you.

 

多诺万:谢谢。

 

Lu Shaye: I am glad to meet you and exchange views with you on questions of common concern.

 

卢大使:很高兴同你见面。

 

Dan: I am pleased to meet you. I’ve been publishing this magazine for 20 years, and I took a leave for 5 years to a very large global company called Magna International. We got operations in China. Very fascinating with the Chinese, but particularly fascinating with you, you’ve made a big impact since you arrived. People taking notice of you and some of your remarks which I was very interested in.

 

多诺万:很高兴见到您。我办《渥太华生活》杂志20年了。不过中途离开了5年,去一家叫麦格纳国际的跨国公司工作,它在中国也有业务。我与中国人相处很愉快,特别是有机会见到您。您履新后发挥了很大的影响力,人们关注您和您的一些言论,我也很感兴趣。

 

I have many colleagues in government, and in national media here and I’d like to think that I am fairly informed about China-Canada matters. But I’d like to ask you from my personal curiosity about some of your comments you made and try to understand your perspective.

 

我在加政府和主流媒体圈中有很多朋友,可以说从他们那里已了解到不少关于中加关系的情况。但我还是很希望就您所作的一些评论向您讨教,以更好理解您的观点。

 

So one thing you said when you were speaking to the Canadian Press was fascinating. And I was looking at your background, and you are a policy person, and you worked at the epicenter of policy in China. So my thinking would be that, I always noticed the Chinese are very precise. So when you say something, there’s usually reason behind it. And the impression I got and many my colleagues in government and media got after you made those remarks was that, you are saying that in terms of relations between our countries, we have to separate trade and development vs. social issues as human rights and these types of things.

 

我看了您的简历,您曾在中国的政策中心部门从事研究工作。我一直觉得,中国人很精准,总是言出有据。我的第一个问题是,您曾提到中加关系中应将经贸合作与人权等社会问题分开讨论。一些加拿大人和政府官员与中国人谈到人权时摆出教训的姿态,我能感觉到您对此失望。这是一个难题吗?我们总是说你们有人权问题,但我们也有。

 

So that’s the first part of the question. At some point, I am curious as to why other countries when they, we go out China for example, we say you have human rights issues, and you do, but so do we. Is it a difficult thing? I sensed the frustration in you that some Canadians and government people seemed to be very judgemental when they deal with the Chinese about those things. Would that be accurate?

 

Long question (smile). Before you answer, respectfully, can I also add one thing for context? The reason I ask this question is, because as a Canadian, I see our government, and I used to be in government, I used to work for former Prime Minister, you know, by seeing it doing this…but we have our problems here with our first nation people. We have a lot of problems here, we have our former supreme court justice who has said that what happened to our aboriginal people in residential schools was a cultural genocide. We are signatory to the International Treaty on Torture but we have cases of hundreds of people who have been kept in solitary confinement, one case in northern Ontario for 4 years. So if Canada is gonna ask these things, but I noticed that the Chinese and most other governments we do this to, they never respond by saying “What about you?” And is that appropriate? I am just curious of your… Ambassador Shaye’s frustration, but I noticed you didn’t point out some of our foibles.

 

这个问题比较长(笑)。在您回答之前,请允许我再补充一点背景。我问这个问题的原因在于,作为加拿大人,作为曾在政府工作过的人,我知道我们的“第一民族”(注:印第安人原住民)问题很严重。加拿大前最高法院法官曾说在原住民寄宿学校所发生的事情就是文化灭绝。加是国际反酷刑条约缔约国,但发生过数百起单独监禁犯人的事件(注:联合国已经把单独监禁超过15天定义为违反人权的酷刑折磨行为),在安省北部一名犯人甚至被单独监禁了4年。但我发现,当加拿大对别国提及人权问题时,中国和其他很多国家从不反问:“你们做得如何?”我注意到您的失望情绪,但您从未指出过加方的缺点。

 

Lu Shaye: It’s about the different cultures between China and Canada. People should be modest and respectful to others according to Chinese traditional culture. We have an old saying: Never do to others what you would not like them to do to you. It’s against our will to impose our views on others. We would like to present our views, but it’s up to you to decide whether to take it. We will not force others to accept something, nor will we be forced to accept something by others. Canada which belongs to western culture is so different from China that is part of oriental culture. Through my experience of dealing with westerners, I feel sometimes the westerners, thinking they are always correct, are fond of lecturing people and teaching others how to do. Maybe in western cultural origins there is dualism, black or white, insisting there’s but one truth, which if I possess, and if your opinion is different from mine, you will stand on the opposite side of the truth. While Chinese are different. We don’t think it’s a black-or-white world. We think things can be like this and, at the same time, like that. Due to 500 years of capitalism development and the modernization of their economy and society, the westerners think they are superior to other nations and are qualified to teach other countries to follow suit. These are the western culture concept and western countries’ way of doing things in international society that I sensed. As to the specific question of human rights issue, what China opposes is western countries’ fancying themselves as preachers demanding others to do this or that. That’s also why I stress many times in my dialogues with Canadian media that human rights issue should be discussed separately from economic and trade issues. Because east and west have different criterion of value on human rights issue, whose criterion should we use to judge human rights situation? Western countries’ or China’s? It’s a question without a fixed answer. Rather than quarreling this futilely and delaying the FTA negotiation, it is better to put aside this question and focus on discussing the free trade deal. The reason I didn’t touch upon human rights violation cases in past and present Canada is not because I didn’t know them, but because I am not willing to drag the skeleton out of its closet based on Chinese cultural traditions.

 

卢大使:这里面涉及到中加两国不同文化。中国的文化传统是谦和,尊重对方。我们有一句话叫做“己所不欲,勿施于人”,因此我们不太愿意把自己的观点强加于人。我们很愿意介绍自己的看法,但是愿不愿意接受由对方自己决定。我们不愿让对方感觉强迫他们接受什么,当然也不愿让外人教我们怎么做。而加拿大属于西方文化,同中国的东方文化截然不同。从我与西方人接触的经历中,我感觉西方人好为人师,总认为自己是对的,喜欢教别人该怎么做。因为西方的文化渊源是二元论,非黑即白,真理只有一个,而掌握真理的是我,你跟我意见不同,就站在了真理的对立面。中国人不同,不认为世界非黑即白,而认为某一件事可以同时是这样又是那样。西方由于近500年资本主义发展,经济社会实现了现代化,就认为比其他国家民族有优越性,认为有资格教导其他国家民族遵从西方的那一套去做,这就是我感觉到的西方文化理念以及目前西方国家在国际社会的行为方式。具体到人权问题,西方国家总认为自己有资格当教师爷,要求别人这样或那样,这就是中国所反对的。这也是为什么我在与加媒体接触中反复强调应将人权问题与经贸问题区分开的理由。因为我们认为,在人权问题上东西方本来就存在不同的价值判断标准,那该用谁的标准判断人权状况呢?西方国家的还是中国的?这是扯不清的问题。与其费口舌扯这个问题,耽误双方自贸协定谈判,不如先撇开这一问题,集中精力把自贸协定谈成。我不去揪加拿大历史上和现实中侵犯人权的事情,不是因为我不知道,而是本着中国文化传统,不去揭老底而已。

 

Dan: So I have an observation. There’s a view in media circles, for example, in national media circles in Canada, and certainly in the government that 2 years ago (Editor’s note: it was last June actually) when the Chinese Foreign Affairs Minister visited and he was speaking about the new silk road and the development in China. He gave a press conference at Foreign Affairs (Ministry), and at one point he admonished the Canadian media. Many people felt that because Stéphane Dion, our Foreign Minister didn’t respond appropriately to that, and that’s why he was moved. They said he was weak. Because there’s a very strong Chinese foreign affairs minister in, and our minister responded very weakly to his comments, to the press. So I am just wondering if you are aware of that.

 

多诺万:我想提一件事。2年前(注:应为去年6月),中国外长访加时,在记者会上教训了加媒体。加媒体界,当然也包括政界很多人认为,时任斯特凡·迪翁外长对此没有给予恰当的回应,他的回应过于软弱,因此后来被解职了。卢大使是否知道此事?

 

Lu Shaye: So the Canadian media thought Foreign Minister Wang Yi overreacted. But do they remember that in 2015 a Chinese correspondent who was visiting arctic region with then Prime Minister Harper wanted to raise a question at the Prime Minister’s press conference, but was refused, stopped and dragged out of the scene? Is that how the Canadian side treat journalists? Is that normal?

 

卢大使:加媒体认为王外长的反应过激。但是加媒体是否记得,2015年,一名中国记者随哈珀总理访问北极地区时,在总理的记者招待会上想提问,但是被拒绝、被制止甚至被拖出记者会现场。加方是这样对待媒体记者的吗?难道这样正常吗?

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